[Tony Elliott] (0:00 - 0:21)
Because you're learning along the way, not just who they are, but who you are as a parent. And you're like, oh crap, both of them have damaged my car driving. I wanted to make sure that I was at every sporting event, every dance recital, every graduation, everything possible, because my dad couldn't do it.
[Tony Cooper] (0:27 - 0:35)
All right, so I am here today with one of my favorite dads. Tony, will you please introduce yourself?
[Tony Elliott] (0:36 - 0:42)
Hi, my name is Tony, and I'm a great dad, and I have some wisdom to share with all of you. Awesome, awesome.
[Tony Cooper] (0:44 - 1:08)
So let's start with the premise of this. The idea that we're just recording a conversation of two dads who've been through it. But the idea is that this is really the conversations that we wish we had had or been exposed to before becoming dads.
So yeah, just curious about your thought about that as the premise of what we're doing.
[Tony Elliott] (1:09 - 1:45)
I think this is sorely needed. I love that you put this together. I think that when I was a kid, it was always my parents would say, oh, there's no manual, there's no handbook that comes out when you have a kid, there's no instruction book for raising kids.
And I think now there's probably a billion in one of those. And so I think the question then is, what bits and pieces can I use and glean as a father about raising kids? And so I think what you're putting together is going to be very, very impactful, very useful for anyone who watches or reads whatever you're putting together.
[Tony Cooper] (1:46 - 1:54)
Of that, did you ever read any books on being a dad? Or did you have anything that was guiding you? Or are you just like everyone else, making it up as you go along?
[Tony Elliott] (1:55 - 3:40)
Honestly, at first, making it up as we went along. And I think that you do bring into your plan how you were raised, right? Good, bad, or indifferent, good, bad, or ugly.
And I think you have these ideas on, well, I'll never be that kind of dad. I want to be this kind of dad. And I think most people just try to figure it out as they go along.
However, with that being said, my wife and I did subscribe to the Love & Logic program, right? Which is, you know, consequences with empathy. We didn't do that until I think after our second daughter was born.
And my first daughter was born two and a half years before my second one. And I think it was the right time for us to do that. We listened to the audiobooks instead of read them.
And we made a sort of concerted effort to listen to the same chapters every single day. So that when we came home, we were on the same page, if you will, right? That didn't mean we always were, because we have different interpretations of what that wisdom being imparted to us may have meant to each other, how we heard them.
But, you know, love languages. That's a book we read, or I read anyway, through a different program that I was part of at the time. And I thought that was super helpful.
And then, you know, being immersed in this coaching program, when we talk about game styles and understanding how people are wired differently biologically to respond to things under pressure. And I don't know if any dads are out there, but guess what? Being a dad is pressure.
Being a kid is pressure. So those biological styles are present all the time. And the question is, how do we navigate those in a way that produce great outcomes for us as parents and for your kids?
[Tony Cooper] (3:41 - 3:47)
And how have you used that? Like, how did that show up? Well, actually, let me back up.
So tell me about your kids. All right.
[Tony Elliott] (3:48 - 4:31)
My kids are awesome. Thank you for asking. Sydney's my oldest.
She turns 24 tomorrow. She, of the game style, she's an influence. So she is wired a lot like I am.
Anna is my youngest. She's 21. She's a senior in college at NAU and Flagstaff, and she's pre-med.
So she's about to graduate with a sort of her degree in some pre-med discipline. They're fantastic. I don't know what else to say, right?
You think about your kids. I'm super proud of them. I love the lives that they're building.
And I mean, they're just really great contributors, to be quite honest.
[Tony Cooper] (4:31 - 4:33)
And what would you say is Emma's game style?
[Tony Elliott] (4:35 - 4:36)
Oh, she's authority like her mother.
[Tony Cooper] (4:37 - 4:57)
Authority, OK. So authority like your mom and influence like your dad. OK.
So I want to dig in a little bit there to, one, what's it been like raising daughters compared to what you may have thought that was going to be? Before we separate them and say that they're different styles, let's start with daughters.
[Tony Elliott] (4:58 - 5:58)
Yeah, look, being a girl dad is, I would say, more fulfilling than I ever imagined. And I can't say how it would be if I had a son. I just don't.
I can go into what I think. I feel like I would have been much harder on a son because maybe that's what my experience was with my dad versus the way it was, the way I perceived it to be with my sisters. As they got older, I just began to, or I just felt so fulfilled with being their father.
So grateful, so blessed. And it doesn't mean that we didn't have trials and tribulations along the way, right? I think that everybody who is a parent will know that, yeah, that happens.
But overall, I mean, I'm so proud of them. They're amazing kids. They're great contributors.
And it's so fulfilling to me and rewarding to be a father to them.
[Tony Cooper] (5:59 - 6:17)
All right. So here it is a couple of decades later, and you're self-identifying as girl dad. But I'm just thinking, before they were born, what thoughts did you have about, I don't know, knowing the gender, like being a dad for different genders, what it might have meant for you to be a dad to a daughter?
[Tony Elliott] (6:21 - 7:17)
So when my wife Chrissy, you know, revealed she was pregnant, you know, that's usually the question I think that many expectant parents kind of have. Like, do you want to be a girl? Do you want it to be a boy?
And honestly, I didn't give a rip. What I cared the most about, I think is what a lot of people care and believe is that, is that the babies are healthy. It wasn't until later, closer maybe to Sidney's delivery, that I did give it a lot of thought.
And I was like, oh, crap, can I do this? Can I be a girl dad? And I think that, you know, early on, there's these superficial sort of visions that come into your head about Barbies and hair and nails and all that other stuff and tea parties.
And guess what? All that happened. All of that happened.
And it was absolutely amazing. The whole experience. I would trade nothing, none of that in for either one of them.
[Tony Cooper] (7:19 - 7:32)
Then let's go back and talk about them through the lens of styles. What did you see is different? And how did that impact how you related to them, how you fathered, which was easier or harder for you?
[Tony Elliott] (7:32 - 9:21)
I don't know that one was easier than the other, or one was more difficult than the other. And I think I can say that with confidence because I mean, I made this study of styles, you know, part of my continuing life's work at this point. It's embedded in every single thing that I talk about and do.
It's part of what I do for my new company that I've been in. And so I say all that to say that I think I became pretty well-versed in navigating it, not perfectly and not without breakdown myself, but just really understanding what they needed. And thankfully, Chrissy also well-versed in it.
She was the one that kept me balanced whenever there was moments where I wouldn't be and vice versa. Yeah, I don't think one was harder than the other. And by the way, I've had this conversation with my daughters.
They're also well-versed in it now. They're just different. And I think that's the way that we approached it.
They're just different. And I know some people go, anyway, your first child is this and your second child is this. I really buy more into how they're wired to respond to pressure.
And look, like I said before, being a kid is pressure. Being a parent, a lot of pressure. So with Sydney being an influence, I think I was able to offer a perspective to both Chrissy and Emma when they both were able to start taking some of this in that they are different.
And these are the things that we can expect when Sydney feels cornered or under a lot of pressure. She's going to want to migrate. She's going to change the subject.
She's going to get on her device. She's going to want to do things other than be present in the moment that is right now. Whereas Emma would just get real quiet, hibernate, pull back quite a bit, but then come back firing, that kind of thing.
[Tony Cooper] (9:21 - 9:29)
So does that mean that you were maybe like a different dad to each? Like Sydney has a different dad now?
[Tony Elliott] (9:30 - 10:18)
No, I don't know if they would say it's different. I think we've just been able to have the tools to navigate it from a different perspective, which to me looks a lot like empathy, right? Being able to see that they're different and that they have different needs in those moments.
But I think I'm the same dad to them. I guess that's a really good question for them. What's interesting is, full transparency, I talked to them about this podcast and specifically asked them their perspective on things.
And the one thing that they said was, we were different kids and we had different needs. And at first, Sydney, my oldest, she said, I felt like you treated Emma differently than you treated me. And I said, that's right.
You had different needs. And she said, now that I'm an adult, I can see what you guys were up to and I understand it.
[Tony Cooper] (10:18 - 10:27)
Was there an interpretation then that she had that somehow was like favoritism or one was getting a better version of you? Or what did that imply?
[Tony Elliott] (10:28 - 11:28)
You know, I didn't dig that deep. And now that you're asking the question, it makes me think, maybe I should go back and ask what she inferred from that sort of perspective that she had. I think that when you're young and you have that perspective, I think it's just, I think at the surface, it does look like favoritism.
They like Emma more than me or they like Sydney more than me because I got in more trouble this way and I never would have been able to get away with that. And by the way, the thing that there is no book for, right, is because they're different kids, your first kid maybe has a little bit tougher time or maybe your second kid does because you're learning along the way, not just who they are, but who you are as a parent. And you're like, oh crap, man, I would do that differently next time or I would maybe think about this next time.
So learning on all sides. But no, that's a great question. I should ask them, how did you interpret that?
[Tony Cooper] (11:29 - 12:01)
Yeah, and I definitely would love to hear about the learning. The idea that we as dads have gotten to the place where we learned and gone, I would have done that differently. That's what I'd love to really pull out, to know what are the things that you've been proud of, that you're really happy about that you'd like to share?
And also what are the things you would have done differently? Where did the regrets happen where you're like, if I had another chance at this, this is how I would have taken it? So however you'd like to.
[Tony Elliott] (12:01 - 16:35)
Yeah, yeah. So these specifically were two things that I talked to my kids about in preparation for our conversation today. And that's because part of the GameStyles thing is what I recognize is, I can think that I'm looking a certain way to somebody, but they're like, oh, contraire.
Here's how I saw you. Here's my perspective. This is what I saw, right?
And I feel like that's probably mostly true, especially for me, right? About the pride part. But there's one thing that I'll say right off the bat that I think I am, that from my own perspective that I'm most proud about, and that is I loved their mother out loud.
And I felt like that was so important. It was very intentional. I always wanted my daughters to know that what love should look like.
And it's not an indictment on anybody else, but I think that it's a strong move in a particular time, generation, world, whatever you wanna say, where it's easy to see divorce, domestic issues and things like that, not to take this down a sort of a dark turn, but I love, and that was intentional because I wanted to be an example for someone who could show them maybe what love should look like to them. And part of what inspired me, one was a conversation I had with my brother-in-law, my wife's brother.
That's his sort of philosophy. And I thought, wow, that's really fantastic. And then I read this little story, little anecdote about this guy.
He was married to his wife. They had children, but they divorced. But every Mother's Day, every birthday, every important holiday, he showed up, brought her flowers, bought her gifts so that his kids could see what love looked like, despite that the parents weren't together.
And I thought, man, that is just, that's awesome to be able to show your kids that you love their mother or that as a mother, they love their father. Even if they're not together, right? I still think that that's a possibility.
I think that's really strong. So there's that part of that. I think from my own perspective, I'm proud of.
When I asked my kids, as a father, what do you think I should be proud of? That's a great question. Yeah, right.
Like, because there's the other side that's coming. Right. And, you know, when the other shoe drops, they say.
But they both said, and I talked to them independently, so it wasn't like it was a group thing. And they're like, oh yeah, whatever Sidney said. It was both the level of communication that we had with them, not necessarily the amount, but the depth of communication that we had with them, instilled in them and encouraged in them, really developed a level of trust and safety for them.
There's sort of a pivotal sort of moment in that sort of idea with Sidney, where, you know, we did the love languages thing. And for the longest time when Sidney was an infant, she always loved this sort of touching sort of thing on her skin, right? That soothes her.
So naturally we take away, oh, she's a physical touch person. Couldn't be more wrong. As she began to have reasoning skills and communication skills.
And, you know, in the teenage years, they're rough, 13, 14, that's where, you know, most people report that that's what, when I was a kid, my parents called it the stupid age, because at 13, you think you know everything and you still don't know anything. But, you know, Sidney just basically, you know, we would have conversations with her about discipline and things like that and similar things with them. But this was so pivotal with Sidney in that she said, you're always pointing out what I do wrong.
And you never really say much about what I do right. And that shifted our perspective immediately on her love language. And it is words of affirmation.
That's the most important thing to her. And more importantly, like just more positivity about the negativity. And I thought that was, you know, a learning moment for us.
But the bottom line is both my daughters just said, having us be able to communicate with you how you're feeling or how we're feeling, providing a level of trust and safety and for us to do that. That's basically what they said. That's what I should be proud of as a dad.
That's awesome.
[Tony Cooper] (16:35 - 16:55)
I just saw something that struck me that reminds me of what you're saying. I saw this on the internet or on Instagram or wherever. It says, I never want my children to pause and think, I can't tell my dad, he'll get mad.
I want their first thought to be, I need to tell my dad, he'll know what to do.
[Tony Elliott] (16:56 - 17:56)
Yes, I love that. I think my kids would agree with that. And what I've, you know, just hearing that from you, what instantly comes to mind is, my kids will call my wife for some things and then they call me for other things.
What do they call you for? Both of them have damaged my car, driving the car. And so they call me.
They call me. And so there's that. They call me for injury and medical things.
But what's interesting is they call their mother for everything else 10 times a day. I will tell you that I can't take any credit for this. So it's not a thing that I'm proud of, but I am so thankful that my kids have the relationship with their mother that they do.
I mean, that's a different story, right? But I am super happy and blessed that they have that. If it couldn't be me, them for sure, or her for sure.
[Tony Cooper] (17:57 - 18:15)
Yeah, what you were saying before about just really showing how tight you and Chrissy are. They're able to see you and love you collectively as opposed to having to pick a side, which I think a lot of parents probably unknowingly force their kids into.
[Tony Elliott] (18:17 - 19:45)
Yeah, I think you're right. Unknowingly, unwittingly, right? You know, they go talk to your father, go talk to your mother.
And look, we've done that, right? And my kids have also played mom against dad. And so we've had to navigate all of that in a way that Chrissy and I had to work really hard to stay consistent.
And we weren't successful every single time. But the product of what you were just talking about, you know, I don't know about you when you were young. I didn't have this when I was young, but like the whole time, you know, family vacations, our family vacations have been absolutely fantastic.
And it always kind of blew my mind that my kids were fine with just the two of them going on vacation with us, even into their 20s. Right, yeah. Like, no, hey, can I bring a friend?
Or no, it's never, I mean, sure they've asked. And we're like, hey, this is gonna be a family thing. They're all cool with that.
And so I live in Arizona and we love to go to a place called Sedona. And if you've never been there, it's absolutely magical, fantastic from an adult's perspective. Kids, not a lot to do, but they love going there with us to just hang out, chill, peace out, hang out by the pool and not do a lot of anything else.
It's not like when we take them to Disneyland or Disney World or, you know, Mission Beach in San Diego, but they're totally cool with that. And everything's great. We just exist and have a really great time together.
And I think that's, I don't know. I don't wanna, you know, I think it's rare.
[Tony Cooper] (19:45 - 20:33)
Well, I agree. And I'm gonna surmise that you had a similar childhood to me in that it's not like I wanted to hang out with my parents. I didn't have a problem hanging out with them.
But like, I wouldn't go out of my way. And certainly if I had options there, you know, I'd probably take them. But like, your kids sound like my kids.
They're like, they want to hang out with us. I try to get my kids to go to summer camp. Summer camp is a big part of my growing up.
They wouldn't go. Like, why not? So I'm still kind of puzzled by that.
What would you say, how did your girls wind up there? Like from a parenting perspective, from like as a dad, how did that happen?
[Tony Elliott] (20:34 - 20:36)
Winding up where exactly?
[Tony Cooper] (20:36 - 20:38)
They want to hang out with you.
[Tony Elliott] (20:39 - 21:54)
You know, that's a great question. And I can only guess, right? And maybe look back and try to put some of the puzzle pieces together.
I do think it goes back to feeling safe to be who they are at all times around us. Silly, serious, upset, angry, super happy, excited. Through all the moods and the emotions that anyone can go through, we've always had their back.
One of the things that I often said to my kids was, you can say anything you want to me. It's okay for you to be upset with me, as long as you don't make it personal, right? If it doesn't turn into a personal attack, then we're okay.
I think it's perfectly fine for you to be upset about something. And so I think that plays into the, you know, building that strong relationship that you have with one another. And that sort of builds the foundation of the platform under which you can all exist together as a family and be okay that maybe your kid doesn't want to go on this one with you or what have you and be okay that they do and hope that they want to.
But I do think foundationally, it's that level of communication, trust and allowing them to be safe that makes them feel like I want to be a part of this community or this tribe that we call the Elliotts.
[Tony Cooper] (21:55 - 22:30)
Yeah, you, I mean, the safety, what I'm hearing you say is like that there's safeties to be who all of them, all of them is accepted. All of them is welcome, which is, you know, that's a pretty unique feeling. I can see why that you would want to crave that for sure.
I'm sure friends don't, you know, don't create that. I am curious about what you just said though, about like, you can say anything you want to me, but don't make it a personal attack. Like, how did you put that in such a way that I'm assuming like we're talking teenager, right?
Is that when that came up?
[Tony Elliott] (22:30 - 22:31)
Yeah, yeah, for sure.
[Tony Cooper] (22:32 - 22:39)
So that was clear what that meant. And then how did that play out? Cause I'm sure, you know, they're not going to get it right.
[Tony Elliott] (22:40 - 23:58)
So, well, it started, you know, back in, you know, obviously Sydney's the oldest daughter, but I had this conversation with Emma too, when she got to about that 12, 13, 14 year old, they did it and several times after that. And I think that maybe even as a father or any of the fathers that are watching or listening to this will probably recall moments like this where you're having a stern conversation with your child about, it could be anything, not getting something done that they needed to get done, whether it be schoolwork, chores, or what have you, or having, you know, a particular type of attitude reflect where maybe there's something else under the surface and sitting them down and having a family meeting or a conversation with one or both parents.
And you can tell that there's something that they wanna say, but they're just clamming up. They don't wanna say anything at all. You're asking them for responses.
You get one or two word responses. I just, in the moment, one time, I just had to say, look, it's okay to say that you're mad at me. It's okay to say that you're disappointed or upset.
But what I don't want you to do is make it a personal attack. I want you to articulate exactly what is on your mind, but just don't make it personal. You can say whatever words you wanna say.
I don't care. I'm not offended by words that come out of people's mouth until they're pointed at me like a weapon. So please don't do that because we'll have a different conversation.
[Tony Cooper] (23:58 - 24:01)
Like what's an example? What's an example if that doesn't work?
[Tony Elliott] (24:04 - 24:26)
I mean, look, I'm just gonna say this. You can edit it out or whatever. But if you were to say, well, I think you're being an asshole.
Okay, that's a different kind of conversation. It may be true that that's how you're feeling about me being a dad in this moment or something that I said to you or didn't allow you to do, but let's just have a different conversation. Just tell me what you're angry about.
Tell me what you're upset about. Tell me why you think that I wasn't being fair to you.
[Tony Cooper] (24:26 - 24:30)
So point to the action as opposed to name calling.
[Tony Elliott] (24:31 - 25:18)
Correct, right. I mean, feelings are on the table. Everybody has them and we need to figure out how to navigate them, especially as teenagers and young adults, man.
We don't, there's another manual. We don't have all like how to navigate feelings or we do and they're just not one is correct all 100% time. But yeah, I just wanted to be very clear with them that all your feelings, thoughts, ideas, they're all valid.
We just need to talk about them. And I need to understand maybe something that is unclear to you about my perspective on what I'm seeing as your father, your parent, whatever you want to call it. What I don't want to do is devolve into name calling or patronizing or anything like that that doesn't actually become fruitful as part of the conversation.
[Tony Cooper] (25:18 - 25:34)
All right, here's a follow-up question on that. So is it any different, would it have been any different if what she said to you was you're an asshole versus you're being an asshole? Is that the same thing or are those different things?
[Tony Elliott] (25:35 - 26:36)
Um, they're very similar to me. It's not a problem with the word asshole or any other words, that's not the problem. I think it's coming from, is there an accusation in there that's sort of in front of what the real conversation needs to be?
It's still to me, it sounds like name calling and you're still hiding behind whatever the real issue is. And so we would have navigated that. I'm thankful that it never turned into that.
But it's just something that has to be navigated in my mind. And I don't think, and I think there's lessons in all of that. Look, would it have been the end of the world if she said that?
No, we just would have stopped that conversation and went another direction about the personal attacks and how those don't really move the ball or bear fruit or any of that. But let's get back to the real issues. Let's just talk about what you're angry about, what you're upset about, what you're hiding that you don't feel like you can say to me.
[Tony Cooper] (26:37 - 27:17)
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's tricky. That's tricky territory for sure.
Sure, it's tricky for adults. Yeah, it is. All right, but you know, I remember years ago, I think it was Louis CK said, I'm not raising children, I'm raising adults.
And I really, when I heard him say that, it really struck me. I was like, right, the more I can treat them like the adults that they're going to become rather than treating them as the children that they currently are, that's moving it in the direction where we're headed rather than getting stuck in where we are.
[Tony Elliott] (27:17 - 27:32)
Yeah, I like that. And I agree with that. And then to be quite honest, I've told my kids several times, we are raising you to leave.
And then I would always come back around as the sincerity type person and go, but I hope you never do.
[Tony Cooper] (27:36 - 27:50)
All right, so you said earlier, which I loved where you said, you know, I always made sure that I loved their mother out loud. That's, I love that expression. And I love that, like making it very vocal, make it very known.
You and Chrissy began for how long?
[Tony Elliott] (27:52 - 28:03)
25 years. Well, we've been together 27 years, married 25 years this year. We decided to make it easy on a guy to remember how long he's been married by getting married in the year 2000 and just remembering what year you're in.
And you got it.
[Tony Cooper] (28:07 - 28:30)
So in order to be in a relationship that long, there are highs and there are lows, right? There are definitely rough times where you and she are going through it. How did you handle those times in front of the girls given this intention to continually love their mother out loud?
How did those interactions show up and how did you handle them?
[Tony Elliott] (28:30 - 31:22)
I think most of them, and to be quite honest, as I'm thinking about this, maybe we also did a little bit of a disservice on this part. We handled most of them privately. And as much as loving their mother out loud, maybe they probably needed to see a little bit of the struggle that out loud as well.
But the one thing that Chrissy and I have always tried to do is follow the same advice we give our kids. Don't make personal attacks on one another. Let's talk about what the issues are and let's just take care of that with us.
And you've heard this said a thousand times probably. And we have said this out loud to our kids and to ourselves. It's not me versus you.
It's us versus the problem. And we really embodied that, I would say, most of the time. Sure, there's times when we didn't and it became us versus each other.
But in the end, we were able to turn it around and really take that approach. This is just a problem. This is a breakdown.
This is a challenge. And we're partners. We're in this.
And we need to look at that as such. I have to be empathetic. I will tell you, there was a pivotal moment in my marriage with Chrissy.
I've said this to my kids before. And she kind of laughs whenever I bring it up. But it's a very pivotal moment for me trying to understand her.
And this was early on into learning styles. So we were decorating our kitchen with this sort of cafe, coffee sort of motif, which is what we did in the early 2000s where that was kind of the vibe. And she liked this sort of wireframe piece of art where it was two frames, but they were both kind of like at an angle with each other.
And it was meant to look sort of off or whatever. Well, I hung it one way for her. And I was irritated.
I was irritable about something else probably. I don't remember what. I just remembered that she stepped back and with the person in charge of quality control in the house, she looked and she goes, it looks crooked.
And I just said, it doesn't matter. Nobody's gonna care. And you know what?
She literally broke tears. And she said, it matters to me. And I felt like such a dumb ass after that.
I felt like such a jerk because you can't argue with that. And so I felt horrible. And I'm telling you that changed so much about how I was able to look at her and see her concerns as something other than just a complaint or just being irritated with something.
I'm like, that matters to her and it needs to matter to me. So that I think plays into what I was saying about loving her out loud, but also taking care of business in a way that, you know, didn't be super adversarial. She just, it matters to me.
And look, you can't argue with that.
[Tony Cooper] (31:22 - 31:44)
Yeah. Something you started with, you were talking about how, you know, our ideas about fatherhood were formed long before we became fathers. So what were like, what were the ideas that formed for you?
What were your role models? What did you see? And how did those show up and or change throughout your experience as a dad?
[Tony Elliott] (31:44 - 32:20)
Yeah. And this is, that's a little bit difficult, but I'm happy to go down that road. So first of all, you know, I'm a child of a sailor and he raised a family of six best he could on a Navy salary.
And what that meant is by the time the sixth one came around, he needed to have two jobs. He needed to have his Navy job. And he, look, he was intentional about retiring from the Navy.
It wasn't like, hey, after this enlistment, I'm getting out. And so there were plenty of times I never saw my dad for a long period of time.
[Tony Cooper] (32:20 - 32:21)
Like how long?
[Tony Elliott] (32:22 - 34:32)
I would be, well, I would be in bed when he came home and he would be off to work before I got up. So it seemed like he wasn't even living there for months, maybe years at a time. And it wasn't like, thankfully, he was never deployed overseas, without us, we never went overseas.
The furthest you could say was, you know, the Aleutian Islands, Adak, Alaska. But we were there. He went six months ahead.
So I didn't see him for six months when I was in kindergarten until it was funny as I looked up this photo of us on the tarmac in Alaska when we landed the first time. And I was like, how old you are in kindergarten? And I remember it very vividly walking in the rain on the wet tarmac and seeing my dad for the first time in six months.
So a lot of the stuff that I learned from my dad, majority of it was how I didn't want to be a dad. And that's not to say that he was a terrible guy or anything like that. I loved my dad, but it was pretty tumultuous for a long period of time with us.
And that also informed this idea that maybe I'd be much harder on a boy instead of being a girl dad. You know, my dad was a recovering alcoholic. He was sober for 47 years before he passed away.
And our relationship didn't get great until I got married in my thirties. And from then on, it got really great. And I think that the two of us then had something more in common.
And he was ready to have conversations with me. That to be quite honest, I don't want to talk about it not in relation to my kids, but maybe it boils down to that. But I didn't allow him to be sorry for certain things because I did what I normally do.
And that is, oh, it's okay. You don't need to be sorry for that. And I kind of robbed him of that, of that apology and that sort of making amends thing that he probably waited a very long time to do with me.
And so a lot of those things, when I decided to be a dad, I'm like, well, I don't want to do that. I don't want to do that. And I think that was my case.
[Tony Cooper] (34:32 - 34:34)
I don't want to do what? What were they?
[Tony Elliott] (34:35 - 36:53)
Well, my wife and I had made a conscious decision. We won't keep alcohol in the house. And not because either of us had a drinking problem, but we know that when kids get to be a certain age and if they're by chance left at home alone, things can go wrong.
And it's not a burden that we felt necessary to carry. We're not avid drinkers. So that was just one thing that we did consciously.
I wanted to make sure that I was at every sporting event, every dance recital, every graduation, everything possible, because my dad couldn't be. Not that he didn't want to be. I think he wanted to be, but he had to prioritize feeding and keeping a house over us.
My dad aspired to be the kind of dad that didn't want to live in Navy housing. He wanted to own a home. And so to do that, own a home that was not on base and under the rule of the United States Navy in that way.
We did have those moments, but he really wanted something more. And so what I don't want anybody to take away is that my dad was a bad dad because he never was around. That's not the case.
He made a choice to try to make a better life for us and to that he sacrificed himself in order to pay the bills, make sure my mom didn't have to work all the time and raise four kids. But it was something that I didn't want for my kids. As far as other role models, my friend Dave was really great early on, really great ideas and mentorship as far as being a dad raising young ones.
I'm super, super grateful for him. And then I've met just people along the way who I think have been great dads. And there's a ton of them.
And some of them just, hey, this is a really cool idea that this guy shared with me, or this might be a really cool idea that this guy shared with me. But for the most part, to be quite honest, Chrissy's really a fantastic mother. So being able to take her lead on certain things and being able to say that, I am not the ruler of the household, but it's a collaborative effort.
I think that's something that we both agreed upon too early on was that we're in this together. We're parents. And we're gonna do the best that we can, the best that we know how, and just try to move through it.
So there's some wing in it. And then there's some conscious effort to go, I don't really wanna be like that in my house.
[Tony Cooper] (36:53 - 37:03)
Do you recall any of the advice that you had gotten over the years or any little tidbits of things that you heard and you tried it out? You remember any of those?
[Tony Elliott] (37:04 - 38:43)
Yeah, yeah. One of the greatest ones that I learned actually came probably, I don't know, 10, 15 years ago at the most. And it originally was about how sons really want the blessing of their father.
But the truth of the matter is, all kids want the blessing of their father. And what they wanna know is that they're loved, that their father approves and supports whatever their aspirations and ambitions are. So that was something that after I already had kids, I'm like, oh yeah.
There were plenty of times in my life and to be quite honest, in my dad's life where my father didn't approve of anything that I wanted to do. But on the other hand, he was super supportive of something else. Like those things back on the wall, super supportive of that.
But there were other things he wasn't super supportive of or he was really critical of or really hard on me about. But his father, same or maybe worse in my opinion, about how the judgmental aspects of things. And look, I'm not trying to run anybody down here, but my observation is that things are really difficult between him and his father and his older brother at the time.
I think that's why he went into the Navy was to sort of escape that and build a life on his own. And I will tell you, I'm super thankful that he did because I wouldn't have known better until having a reflective conversation like this. I'm thankful I didn't grow up with some of the thoughts and ideals that my grandfather and my uncle did.
It's abhorrent to me.
[Tony Cooper] (38:43 - 38:55)
I would like this to be true. I don't know if it's true or not, but I would like to believe that everyone's trying to do a better job than their parents. Everyone's trying to create a better environment than the one they were raised in.
[Tony Elliott] (38:56 - 39:36)
Yeah, I hope so. I mean, we do hear about patterns where that's not the case, unfortunately. I've had guys say, okay, this is how I grew up.
They gotta learn the hard way or whatever. I'm like, I don't know if I agree with that. Sure, there's hard lessons to learn, right?
And not robbing the kids of the lessons is also very hard to do. Trying not to be the parent that just gives them all the answers. And then by the time they get into college, they don't know how to think for themselves.
That's also hard, right? Allowing some hard lessons to happen. But just because you were raised that way doesn't mean you need to maybe raise your kids that way.
I don't know, I could be wrong about that. I hope I am.
[Tony Cooper] (39:36 - 41:29)
Yeah, I think about this idea of like pendulum parenting. I was raised with super strict parents, so then I'm gonna pendulum swing and be super allowing. And then those kids are gonna go like, that was too ungrounded and too unsafe.
So actually I'm gonna be strict. I wonder, I would rather it be like, yeah, like you're saying, I understand from an empathy perspective what it might've been like for my dad to be raised in the environment he is. And we have these embedded, I'm sure you experienced this, we have embedded parenting ways of being that we don't even know exist that only come out when you have kids because it's in your, well, it's genetically gifted to you through epigenetics, which that's a great word I love, epigenetics.
Yeah, it is. It's gifted to you like an heirloom, right? But it's another way of looking at it, it's also generational trauma.
And it just comes out. And I definitely have been thinking about like the greatest legacy that we can leave behind is breaking generational trauma. Like everything else is sort of self-serving.
And so that whole idea of we've inherited trauma through the generations, it's just as a guy, Dr. Gabor Mate, who said he surmises that something like 95% of the trauma we have is generational, like passed on to us. And so parenting, I think, gives us a really good opportunity to break those cycles, to be the one that says it stops with me. So where do you think you've done that?
Like what stories have you changed in your lineage that you are just like, a man, I hope this doesn't get passed on to my kids.
[Tony Elliott] (41:30 - 42:51)
This actually ties back to the question I didn't answer earlier about what do I regret most about being a dad? And what's interesting is when I brought it to my kids before, look, I was very impatient. And I hope that stops with them.
There were times like driving home from school or whatever, they wanna listen to their music. And I'm just like, absolutely not. We're not listening to Justin Bieber and Hannah Montana.
And so I've expressed that regret to my wife. And in preparation for this conversation, I expressed it to my daughters. And they're like, well, yeah, but that's not anything I really think about.
And all three of them said the same kind of thing. You exposed us to different kinds of music that we probably wouldn't have been exposed to if we would have just kept listening to the stuff that we were already listening to. And so I actually, with Emma, I was just having the conversation.
So I go, and that's right. How would you have known about Let's Groove by Earth, Wind & Fire? And then she jumps in and she goes, or it takes two to make a thing go right.
I'm like, so all of those things. But the impatience thing for me is something that I hope doesn't carry into their parenting styles.
[Tony Cooper] (42:54 - 42:58)
What work have you done to shift that impatience?
[Tony Elliott] (42:59 - 44:48)
You know, I wish I could say that it's something I worked really hard on, intentionally read books and stuff like that. I just had to have hard conversations with myself in those moments of regret and learn to just put the brakes on whenever I feel like I'm in a hurry or I wanna get going. And my kids will tell you all kinds of crazy, funny stories about how, what not.
And this goes back to love and logic, but I'll get to that in a sec. But the idea is that I just had to be conscious enough to know you're being impatient. Does this really matter right now?
Is it super important to hurry up and get up and go or get up from the table or whatever? What my kids used to find funny is that when I'm ready to leave the house, I'm ready to leave the house, I get in the car. And I'll say two of the people in my family are habitually late.
And so part of it, I will not tell you their names, but anybody who knows me knows who they are. And we joke about it. It is the fun thing that it wasn't before.
But part of the love and logic thing that we learned is one that it works on adults too. I would just say, hey, my car's leaving at 7.30 this morning. I don't say I'm leaving.
I say my car's leaving at 7.30 in the morning. And here's the rub. If you're gonna play that card, you have to be willing to back your car out of the garage and leave at 7.30 and let all the tears fall that are gonna fall. One of the other things that my kids laugh about is once I'm done eating dinner, I cannot still sit at the table. I have to get up. The plate's empty, gets cleared.
I gotta stand up and move somewhere else. I can't just sit there at the table. The difficulty is- Why?
[Tony Cooper] (44:48 - 44:48)
What's wrong with you?
[Tony Elliott] (44:49 - 45:13)
I know, right? What is why? Why can't you just sit at the table and enjoy?
I don't know what it is. It's one of those deeply rooted habits that has me and I don't know how to stop it. Here's the thing.
I'm conscious. Every time I do it now, I'm conscious of it and I try my hardest to still sit there. But I just started seething.
I'm like, I gotta get up. I gotta get up. I don't know what it is.
I don't know where it came from.
[Tony Cooper] (45:13 - 45:16)
It sounds like it's connected to the impatience thing. There's something there.
[Tony Elliott] (45:16 - 45:16)
Sure.
[Tony Cooper] (45:17 - 45:17)
Yeah.
[Tony Elliott] (45:18 - 45:33)
But what's funny is my youngest daughter is the slowest eater on the planet. So when we're all at dinner together- Of course, of course. She's maybe halfway through her meal.
I'm done and I'm like, let's go.
[Tony Cooper] (45:35 - 45:44)
Yeah. Yeah. I wonder what it would be like if I ate more slowly.
Never crosses your mind.
[Tony Elliott] (45:45 - 46:16)
Not a thing. You know, I was in basic training in the army and then the one- You talk about generational trauma. How about non-generational, just trauma?
When these guys come in and they got those big brown hats on their head and you're standing there with your plate and they're like, all right, sit down private. You got 30 seconds to eat this food. You don't got time to chew it.
You don't got time to taste it. Just eat it. And literally two to five minutes, whatever you fit in your face, you gotta get out.
Wow. I don't know if that's what it is. It's what comes to mind.
[Tony Cooper] (46:16 - 46:16)
Right.
[Tony Elliott] (46:16 - 46:59)
I don't eat that fast anymore, but I don't know if you've ever seen those videos on TikTok or Instagram where either the wife is trying to match the pace of the husband's eating or the husband then tries to match the pace of the wife's eating. Oh, they are hilarious. Especially because, you know, you've watched this guy sitting, you know, next to her at a barstool and he literally takes half the cheeseburger in one bite and just, and she's, yeah.
And she's like, what? And then he takes a drink and he chews it up. He takes another bite.
She can't even swallow her one bite of burger before he gets into his second half of burger. And I feel like, is that me? Is that how my kids see me when I'm eating so quickly and I'm done long before anybody else?
I don't know.
[Tony Cooper] (47:00 - 47:07)
What core principles have you sought to establish with your kids and your family?
[Tony Elliott] (47:09 - 47:55)
That's a great question. I don't think I'm ready for this. Authenticity is one that comes to mind.
Like just be honest, be who you are. We'll sort out anything that has to do with any of that. Always just be honest and always tell the truth.
Everything else is workable. Like we can get around all of that. I think that's really the core principle.
Just be authentic, be the real you. And I think that's what my kids are reporting back is we gave them the safety and the freedom and the space to do that. And I'm not saying I'm surprised by it.
I was elated to hear that that's what they got from us. Because I don't think I've felt that way when I was a kid.
[Tony Cooper] (47:55 - 48:26)
There's this Italian author. His name is Umberto Eco. And he said, it was most about men, but I think it just works in general.
But what we become in life depends on what our fathers taught us when they weren't trying to teach us anything. I'm just wondering, like what do you think you taught your kids when you weren't trying to teach them anything? Like just from the observation around you.
[Tony Elliott] (48:26 - 49:42)
Yeah. I think it's probably one of those things where like maybe what my dad taught me was I don't want to do that. I don't want to be that.
Maybe. I think this is one of those questions. I think it's probably more fair to ask them that question, but I understand why you're asking me.
I think it's how to love people, how to be kind, how to be empathetic. How to be generous. Hopefully.
That's what I would like for them to take away. Because I don't think those are things you can just sit down and write on a piece of paper on a whiteboard and go, this is how you be generous or this is how you be kind. I have had conversations with them about the distinctions between being kind and being polite.
And that my preference is kindness. Because politeness to me means that they would be excusing bad behavior in the name of manners, right? That's what manners are like, oh, excuse me.
And that's okay once in a while. But kindness means that you love somebody enough to tell them, hey, you're kind of off track here. That didn't feel good when you said that to me.
I think I didn't like when you did that to me. I think that's kindness. As well as all the other, you know, all the other positive things.
But politeness never addresses those things.
[Tony Cooper] (49:43 - 49:48)
And kindness is what you do to avoid having the difficult conversations.
[Tony Elliott] (49:49 - 50:34)
And when it's intentional, I think it says a lot about how you feel about that other person. I think it's easy to be unintentional and excuse and be polite to avoid those conversations. Not meaning that you don't love them the same.
But once you do recognize, I think the distinction between those and if you continue to be polite, it probably means that maybe you don't feel about them the way you thought you did. And it's hard to move into the kindness space. Even for me at the age of 59, sometimes I have a hard time telling people, hey, look, that's off base.
That's not what you said. Or I thought you were trying to go this direction in your life and that doesn't seem consistent. And I'm working on that even to this day.
And so maybe that's another one of those things I hope my kids learn from me is that I'm always still working on me.
[Tony Cooper] (50:34 - 51:00)
That's a great lesson. Yeah, I imagine that that's what they got from you when you weren't trying to teach them that. You were working on yourself and they saw it and they saw you change and saw the value.
And that's a great one. What's a part of fatherhood that you found sort of unexpectedly wonderful, like that you hadn't actually seen coming sort of thing?
[Tony Elliott] (51:02 - 52:24)
The joy of their wins and their accomplishments. Man, I used to watch things like American Idol and America's Got Talent and all of a sudden, they pan the camera to this singer's parents and they're sobbing or this dancer's father and he's sobbing. And I'm like, what?
Until you're in it, until you're sitting in the bleachers or you're sitting in the theater seats and it doesn't matter what age they are and it doesn't matter what the trophy or the award is, it's how they're performing in a way that it's immeasurable to anybody else. It's like no longer about the competition, it's about where they're coming from, how they're performing, the passion that they have and the joy that they receive if and when they win an award, like what happens for them. As a parent, you go, holy crap, that's so amazing for them.
I mean, it's for them. And my kids would tell you, that's a win for us because they couldn't have done it without us. And so that's also awesome to hear.
But when they win their state championships, when they win trophies for all their recitals and all that other stuff, you're just like, the joy in their accomplishments is absolutely incomparable to anything else.
[Tony Cooper] (52:26 - 52:56)
You know, as you're saying that, you know, like on American Idol or these shows, they'll do the, in the Olympics too, I think they do a great job as they show you the backstory, like the backstory of who they are, where they came from, gives you a whole new appreciation for what they're completing in front of you. But like, as a parent, you have the whole backstory, you know, all the struggles, you know, all the challenges and everything it took to get to where they are to accomplish what they're doing. And yeah, you feel all of that all at once.
[Tony Elliott] (52:56 - 53:30)
It's crazy. Yeah. And then like me, like an idiot back in the day, you're like, why is that guy crying?
I said, the kid's a great singer and all, but then you're like, now I know, I know exactly why. At graduation, you know, some of the biggest, strongest, burly men are bawling like babies because they know the challenges, they know the heart, they know how much, you know, sacrifice and suffering that their kid went through to be standing there in this moment right now. And it's absolutely, it's joyous.
[Tony Cooper] (53:30 - 54:03)
This has been so great, Tony. I knew we'd have an incredible conversation and I hope it's not our last. I want more.
But what I would love to finish up with is some piece of advice you would have for a brand new father, someone who's just stepping in. If you remember like being a brand new dad, like the thing you are the most sure of is you don't know shit at all. That's right.
So what one little piece of advice could you offer a brand new dad?
[Tony Elliott] (54:06 - 55:27)
If, yeah, one, the first piece of advice, just really recognize you don't know shit yet. And that's actually going to be a superpower if you're willing to learn. You don't have to have all the answers right now is another one because your kid is going to grow.
What you need to focus on right now is how to support the mother, whether you're together with her or not, but how do you support the mother? Because she's going to do the lion's share of all the work for the most part. So what can you do to be a really good support system?
And I'll even go and say out loud so that it's not something you're trying to do silently, like be vocal about what it is that you want to do to support them and then do it. Listen to her when she tells you what she needs. She has been carrying that baby for nine months plus on average, right?
Sometimes they're born early, so she already knows that baby much longer and much better than you do, believe it or not, right? They've been literally connected for nine months. So listen to her when she tells you what she needs, what she thinks the baby needs.
The truth is that sometimes neither one of you are going to know what to do. And my recommendation is that both of you don't go into a breakdown situation at the same time. You try to just...
Easier said than done, right? Yeah, right.
[Tony Cooper] (55:27 - 55:28)
They usually one creates the other.
[Tony Elliott] (55:29 - 56:31)
Yeah, right. Right, look, and look, I know this and I try to say that all the time when I'm talking to people about stuff like this. It's like, it's an easy concept.
It's really hard to do. But if you can stay present and communicate with the child's mother, when you call it your wife, partner, spouse, whatever, then I think you'll have a much better shot of figuring it all out. If you're both circling the drain on your emotions and upset, man, it's really hard to come back from that in a quick way and have a good response.
So yeah, I think that's what I would say. Like one, know that you don't have it all figured out. And two, you don't have to right now.
You just have to figure out this part and then the next part and then the next part. But listen to the mother and support her the best you can and then keep trying to get better at that. You'll have your time when you'll get supported.
But right out of the gates, it's all about her and the baby, in my opinion.
[Tony Cooper] (56:32 - 56:40)
And it's great. It reminded me of the movie, The Martian, where it was like, just solve the problem in front of you right now.
[Tony Elliott] (56:40 - 56:56)
Don't worry about the problem. That's it. That's it.
That's exactly right. I never even thought about that. That's really great.
The problem in front of you, that's the one you solve. And I'll tell you, I think one of the biggest problems is that the mother's amount of sleep.
[Tony Cooper] (56:56 - 57:02)
Hmm. Both of you are going to deal with an incredible amount of lack of sleep.
[Tony Elliott] (57:03 - 57:38)
Yes. But I'll tell you, I've known, and I may have also been guilty of this early on, is that, you know, I think as far as sometimes we think, well, only the mother can solve this problem. They're nursing or whatever.
Like, well, that's not altogether true. I mean, you can plan for that and you can at least volunteer to be the one that gets up. Or if you're not, I know dads who've been the ones who didn't do that.
I've known dads who've been the ones who, you know, step in and do a lot to support the mother. And I would say that probably the latter is probably what I would recommend for every new father out there. Just step in and support that mom.
[Tony Cooper] (57:39 - 57:42)
Yeah, I got very good at pretending that I couldn't hear the baby cry when I was asleep.
[Tony Elliott] (57:44 - 57:54)
Yep. I didn't hear that. Oh, so tired from earlier.
Must be my sleep apnea, like snoring right through it.
[Tony Cooper] (57:55 - 58:00)
Yeah, Tony, thank you so much. I appreciate you. I love you, brother.
[Tony Elliott] (58:01 - 58:46)
Likewise, I love you too, man. This is, thank you. It's been an honor to actually get on here and talk to you about this.
My hope is that this is, that someone can take at least one thing away from this. Now, I wish I would have had this 25 years ago to learn from. So thank you for doing this.
I think this is going to be super meaningful and super helpful for some current fathers and some to-be fathers. And just to let you know, when these things start airing, I'm going to have my daughter's partner watch these. I'll be a grandfather December.
So he'll have an opportunity to maybe be one of the beta testers of your new manual.
[Tony Cooper] (58:47 - 58:52)
So we'll see. Beautiful, beautiful. All right.
Well, until next time.
[Tony Elliott] (58:53 - 58:55)
Yes. Hope there's a next time.
[Tony Cooper] (58:56 - 59:29)
Thanks so much for listening to this episode of the Dad Manual Podcast. If you liked it, please leave us a rating or subscribe to our YouTube channel. And if you really liked it, please share it with a dad you love.
I'm looking to grow a community of fathers who are ready to change the world. And I need your help to do that. And if you got questions or topics you want me to explore, email them to me at thedadmanual at gmail.com.
I would love to answer your questions on our next episode. Until next time, I'm Tony Cooper. And this is the Dad Manual Podcast.